Start reading Oathbringer, the new volume of Brandon Sanderson’s Stormlight Archive epic, right now. For free!
Tor.com is serializing the much-awaited third volume in the Stormlight Archive series every Tuesday until the novel’s November 14, 2017 release date.
Every installment is collected here in the Oathbringer index.
Need a refresher on the Stormlight Archive before beginning Oathbringer? Here’s a summary of what happened in Book 1: The Way of Kings and Book 2: Words of Radiance.
Spoiler warning: Comments will contain spoilers for previous Stormlight books and the available chapters of Oathbringer, along with speculation regarding the chapters yet to come.
Prologue: To Weep
SIX YEARS AGO
Eshonai had always told her sister that she was certain something wonderful lay over the next hill. Then one day, she’d crested a hill and found humans.
She’d always imagined humans—as sung of in the songs—as dark, formless monsters. Instead they were wonderful, bizarre creatures. They spoke with no discernible rhythm. They wore clothing more vibrant than carapace, but couldn’t grow their own armor. They were so terrified of the storms that even when traveling they hid inside vehicles.
Most remarkably, they had only one form.
She first assumed the humans must have forgotten their forms, much as the listeners once had. That built an instant kinship between them.
Now, over a year later, Eshonai hummed to the Rhythm of Awe as she helped unload drums from the cart. They’d traveled a great distance to see the human homeland, and each step had overwhelmed her further. That experience culminated here, in this incredible city of Kholinar and its magnificent palace.
This cavernous unloading dock on the western side of the palace was so large, two hundred listeners had packed in here after their first arrival, and still hadn’t filled the place. Indeed, most of the listeners couldn’t attend the feast upstairs—where the treaty between their two peoples was being witnessed—but the Alethi had seen to their refreshment anyway, providing mountains of food and drink for the group down here.
She stepped out of the wagon, looking around the loading dock, humming to Excitement. When she’d told Venli she was determined to map the world, she’d imagined a place of natural discovery. Canyons and hills, forests and laits overgrown with life. Yet all along, this had been out here. Waiting just beyond their reach.
Along with more listeners.
When Eshonai had first met the humans, she’d seen the little listeners they had with them. A hapless tribe who were trapped in dullform. Eshonai had assumed the humans were taking care of the poor souls without songs.
Oh, how innocent those first meetings had been.
Those captive listeners had not been merely some small tribe, but instead representative of an enormous population. And the humans had not been caring for them.
The humans owned them.
A group of these parshmen, as they were called, clustered around the outside of Eshonai’s ring of workers.
“They keep trying to help,” Gitgeth said to Curiosity. He shook his head, his beard sparkling with ruby gemstones that matched the prominent red colors of his skin. “The little rhythmless ones want to be near us. They sense that something is wrong with their minds, I tell you.”
Eshonai handed him a drum from the back of the cart, then hummed to Curiosity herself. She hopped down and approached the group of parshmen.
“You aren’t needed,” she said to Peace, spreading her hands. “We would prefer to handle our own drums.”
The ones without songs looked at her with dull eyes.
“Go,” she said to Pleading, waving toward the nearby festivities, where listeners and human servants laughed together, despite the language barrier. Humans clapped along to listeners singing the old songs. “Enjoy yourselves.”
A few looked toward the singing and cocked their heads, but they didn’t move.
“It won’t work,” Brianlia said to Skepticism, resting her arms across a drum nearby. “They simply can’t imagine what it is to live. They’re pieces of property, to be bought and sold.”
What to make of this idea? Slaves? Klade, one of the Five, had gone to the slavers in Kholinar and purchased a person to see if it truly was possible. He hadn’t even bought a parshman; there had been Alethi for sale. Apparently the parshmen were expensive, and considered high-quality slaves. The listeners had been told this, as if it were supposed to make them proud.
She hummed to Curiosity and nodded to the side, looking toward the others. Gitgeth smiled and hummed to Peace, waving for her to go. Everyone was used to Eshonai wandering off in the middle of jobs. It wasn’t that she was unreliable. . . . Well, perhaps she was, but at least she was consistent.
Regardless, she’d be wanted at the king’s celebration soon anyway; she was one of the best among the listeners at the dull human tongue, which she’d taken to naturally. It was an advantage that had earned her a place on this expedition, but it was also a problem. Speaking the human tongue made her important, and people who grew too important couldn’t be allowed to go off chasing the horizon.
She left the unloading bay and walked up the steps into the palace proper, trying to take in the ornamentation, the artistry, the sheer overwhelming wonder of the building. Beautiful and terrible. People who were bought and sold maintained this place, but was that what freed the humans to create great works like the carvings on the pillars she passed, or the inlaid marble patterns on the floor?
She passed soldiers wearing their artificial carapace. Eshonai didn’t have armor of her own at the moment; she wore workform instead of warform, as she liked its flexibility.
Humans didn’t have a choice. They hadn’t lost their forms as she’d first assumed; they only had one. Forever in mateform, workform, and warform all at once. And they wore their emotions on their faces far more than listeners. Oh, Eshonai’s people would smile, laugh, cry. But not like these Alethi.
The lower level of the palace was marked by broad hallways and galleries, lit by carefully cut gemstones that made light sparkle. Chandeliers hung above her, broken suns spraying light everywhere. Perhaps the plain appearance of the human bodies—with their bland skin that was various shades of tan—was another reason they sought to ornament everything, from their clothing to these pillars.
Could we do this? she thought, humming to Appreciation. If we knew the right form for creating art?
The upper floors of the palace were more like tunnels. Narrow stone corridors, rooms like bunkers dug into a mountainside. She made her way toward the feast hall to check if she was needed, but stopped here and there to glance into rooms. She’d been told she could wander as she pleased, that the palace was open to her save for areas with guards at the doors.
She passed a room with paintings on all the walls, then one with a bed and furniture. Another door revealed an indoor privy with running water, a marvel that she still didn’t understand.
She poked through a dozen rooms. As long as she reached the king’s celebration in time for the music, Klade and the others of the Five wouldn’t complain. They were as familiar with her ways as everyone else. She was always wandering off, poking into things, peeking into doors . . .
And finding the king?
Eshonai froze, the door cracked open, allowing her to see into a lush room with a thick red rug and bookshelves lining the walls. So much information just lying around, casually ignored. More surprisingly, King Gavilar himself stood pointing at something on a table, surrounded by five others: two officers, two women in long dresses, and one old man in robes.
Why wasn’t Gavilar at the feast? Why weren’t there guards at the door? Eshonai attuned Anxiety and pulled back, but not before one of the women prodded Gavilar and pointed toward Eshonai. Anxiety pounding in her head, she pulled the door closed.
A moment later a tall man in uniform stepped out. “The king would like to see you, Parshendi.”
She feigned confusion. “Sir? Words?”
“Don’t be coy,” the soldier said. “You’re one of the interpreters. Come in. You aren’t in trouble.”
Anxiety shaking her, she let him lead her into the den.
“Thank you, Meridas,” Gavilar said. “Leave us for a moment, all of you.”
They filed out, leaving Eshonai at the door attuning Consolation and humming it loudly—even though the humans wouldn’t understand what it meant.
“Eshonai,” the king said. “I have something to show you.”
He knew her name? She stepped farther into the small, warm room, holding her arms tightly around her. She didn’t understand this man. It was more than his alien, dead way of speaking. More than the fact that she couldn’t anticipate what emotions might be swirling in there, as warform and mateform contested within him.
More than any human, this man baffled her. Why had he offered them such a favorable treaty? At first it had seemed an accommodation between tribes. That was before she’d come here, seen this city and the Alethi armies. Her people had once possessed cities of their own, and armies to envy. They knew that from the songs.
That had been long ago. They were a fragment of a lost people. Traitors who had abandoned their gods to be free. This man could have crushed the listeners. They’d once assumed that their Shards—weapons they had so far kept hidden from the humans—would be enough to protect them. But she’d now seen over a dozen Shardblades and suits of Shardplate among the Alethi.
Why did he smile at her like that? What was he hiding, by not singing to the rhythms to calm her?
“Sit, Eshonai,” the king said. “Oh, don’t be frightened, little scout. I’ve been wanting to speak to you. Your mastery of our language is unique!”
She settled on a chair while Gavilar reached down and removed something from a small satchel. It glowed with red Stormlight, a construction of gemstones and metal, crafted in a beautiful design.
“Do you know what this is?” he asked, gently pushing it toward her.
“No, Your Majesty.”
“It’s what we call a fabrial, a device powered by Stormlight. This one makes warmth. Just a smidge, unfortunately, but my wife is confident her scholars can create one that will heat a room. Wouldn’t that be wonderful? No more smoky fires in hearths.”
It seemed lifeless to Eshonai, but she didn’t say so. She hummed to Praise so he’d feel happy telling her of this, and handed it back.
“Look closely,” King Gavilar said. “Look deep into it. Can you see what’s moving inside? It’s a spren. That is how the device works.”
Captive like in a gemheart, she thought, attuning Awe. They’ve built devices that mimic how we apply the forms? The humans did so much with their limitations!
“The chasmfiends aren’t your gods, are they,” he said.
“What?” she asked, attuning Skepticism. “Why ask that?” What a strange turn in the conversation.
“Oh, it’s merely something I’ve been thinking about.” He took the fabrial back. “My officers feel so superior, as they think they have you figured out. They think you’re savages, but they are so wrong. You’re not savages. You’re an enclave of memories. A window into the past.”
He leaned forward, the light from the ruby leaking between his fingers. “I need you to deliver a message to your leaders. The Five? You’re close to them, and I’m being watched. I need their help to achieve something.”
She hummed to Anxiety.
“Now, now,” he said. “I’m going to help you, Eshonai. Did you know, I’ve discovered how to bring your gods back?”
No. She hummed to the Rhythm of the Terrors. No . . .
“My ancestors,” he said, holding up the fabrial, “first learned how to hold a spren inside a gemstone. And with a very special gemstone, you can hold even a god.”
“Your Majesty,” she said, daring to take his hand in hers. He couldn’t feel the rhythms. He didn’t know. “Please. We no longer worship those gods. We left them, abandoned them.”
“Ah, but this is for your good, and for ours.” He stood up. “We live without honor, for your gods once brought ours. Without them, we have no power. This world is trapped, Eshonai! Stuck in a dull, lifeless state of transition.” He looked toward the ceiling. “Unite them. I need a threat. Only danger will unite them.”
“What . . .” she said to Anxiety. “What are you saying?”
“Our enslaved parshmen were once like you. Then we somehow robbed them of their ability to undergo the transformation. We did it by capturing a spren. An ancient, crucial spren.” He looked at her, green eyes alight. “I’ve seen how that can be reversed. A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding. A new war.”
“Insanity.” She rose to her feet. “Our gods tried to destroy you.”
“The old Words must be spoken again.”
“You can’t . . .” She trailed off, noticing for the first time that a map covered the table nearby. Expansive, it showed a land bounded by oceans— and the artistry of it put her own attempts to shame.
She rose and stepped to the table, gaping, the Rhythm of Awe playing in her mind. This is gorgeous. Even the grand chandeliers and carved walls were nothing by comparison. This was knowledge and beauty, fused into one.
“I thought you’d be pleased to hear that we are allies in seeking the return of your gods,” Gavilar said. She could almost hear the Rhythm of Reprimand in his dead words. “You claim to fear them, but why fear that which made you live? My people need to be united, and I need an empire that won’t simply turn to infighting once I am gone.”
“So you seek for war?”
“I seek for an end to something that we never finished. My people were Radiant once, and your people—the parshmen—were vibrant. Who is served by this drab world where my people fight each other in endless squabbles, without light to guide them, and your people are as good as corpses?”
She looked back at the map. “Where . . . where is the Shattered Plains? This portion here?”
“That is all of Natanatan you gesture toward, Eshonai! This is the Shattered Plains.” He pointed at a spot not much bigger than his thumbnail, when the entire map was as large as the table.
It gave her a sudden dizzying perspective. This was the world? She’d assumed that in traveling to Kholinar, they’d crossed almost as far as the land could go. Why hadn’t they shown her this before!
Her legs weakened, and she attuned Mourning. She dropped back into her seat, unable to stand.
So vast.
Gavilar removed something from his pocket. A sphere? It was dark, yet somehow still glowed. As if it had . . . an aura of blackness, a phantom light that was not light. Faintly violet. It seemed to suck in the light around it.
He set it on the table before her. “Take that to the Five and explain what I told you. Tell them to remember what your people once were. Wake up, Eshonai.”
He patted her on the shoulder, then left the room. She stared at that terrible light, and—from the songs—knew it for what it was. The forms of power had been associated with a dark light, a light from the king of gods.
She plucked the sphere off the table and went running.
When the drums were set up, Eshonai insisted on joining the drummers. An outlet for her anxiety. She beat to the rhythm in her head, banging as hard as she could, trying with each beat to banish the things the king had said.
And the things she’d just done.
The Five sat at the high table, the remnants of their final course uneaten.
He intends to bring back our gods, she’d told the Five.
Close your eyes. Focus on the rhythms.
He can do it. He knows so much.
Furious beats pulsing through her soul.
We have to do something.
Klade’s slave was an assassin. Klade claimed that a voice—speaking to the rhythms—had led him to the man, who had confessed his skills when pressed. Venli had apparently been with Klade, though Eshonai hadn’t seen her sister since earlier in the day.
After a frantic debate, the Five had agreed this was a sign of what they were to do. Long ago, the listeners had summoned the courage to adopt dullform in order to escape their gods. They’d sought freedom at any cost.
Today, the cost of maintaining that freedom would be high.
She played the drums. She felt the rhythms. She wept softly, and didn’t look as the strange assassin—wearing flowing white clothing provided by Klade—left the room. She’d voted with the others for this course of action.
Feel the peace of the music. As her mother always said. Seek the rhythms. Seek the songs.
She resisted as the others pulled her away. She wept to leave the music behind. Wept for her people, who might be destroyed for tonight’s action. Wept for the world, which might never know what the listeners had done for it.
Wept for the king, whom she had consigned to death.
The drums cut off around her, and dying music echoed through the halls.
Oathbringer: The Stormlight Archive Book 3 copyright © 2017 Dragonsteel Entertainment, LLC
Let the wailing discussion begin!
Ugh, I have to get up at 6 to be at work by 8am. Why Tor? You know I’m going to read it. Sleep hygiene is important too.
Wow, Tor.com! Midnight? Nice
And it’s super depressing to boot. That’s wonderful
Well, they did warn you that the title was “To Weep”…. Were you surprised by the POV?
That was depressing but it helps explain so much also that our favorite scholar wasn’t the only that knew what the parshmen we’re.
Interesting that Venli just happened to be with Klade when he heard the voice that directed him to buy Szeth, isn’t it…
awesome awesome awesome!
I wonder who’s pov the next two books will be on.
@8 I’m assuming dalinar and gavilar
Not sure Dalinar makes much sense. He was all but – or altogether – passed-out drunk by the time anything interesting happened, so all we’d get is the party before and the guilt after.
I still curious that it still says 6 years ago. I thought by now another year must have passed to from WoK to Oathbringer
Ah good point then perhaps sadeus or amaram or even one of the hearelds we know was there.
I think one thing that is interesting is how last minute the idea to kill Gavilar was. You have to wonder how much Venli knows, and when she began to plot to bring back the old gods.
Any more guesses for future prologue POVs? Venli, Tavarangian, or one of the heralds that Jasnah bumped in to are my thoughts.
I would say out of the three prologues, I like this one the best. Jasnah’s prologue was my least favorite, because it didn’t seem to have a clear structure, and the random assassin that she hires, while interesting, doesn’t address the mysteries of the evening very well. I think Szeth’s, while more exciting, was a little too videogame-ish for my taste. This prologue really gets you into the mindset of a Parshendi, and gives you a different perspective on the whole conflict. The Parshendi cut off a part of their personality in order to control their gods, but is mere existence a without really living that great of an option? Perhaps there is a better way, for them not just to exist, but to live.
Speaking of the other Prologues… I have a looney theory that the assassin Liss is actually the Herald Chana in disguise. :D
Oh man, I just found it about these advanced release chapters. What great timing! I thought they were releasing 3 chapters at a time though. So where are chapters 2 and 3?
I misread the initial post explaining the releases…
Dalinar will be the flashback chapters for Oathbringer. They released the first 4 flashback chapters from it in a book titled Unfettered 2 a few months back.
Somehow seems shorter than the previous two prologues.
I like Eshonai and I hope that she is able to break from her current predicament.
It does puzzle me how the listeners have access to both shard plate and blades. The ‘dead’ blades and plate require storm light infused gems to work; I assumed this addition to be the invention of humans. How did the isolated population of listeners manage to do this in their dull-forms. In the text above Eshonai mentions surprise that humans have shards.
Some assumptions here but I assume that the day of recreance was after the end of the last desolation – I doubt that the desolation have ended in ‘victory’ if the radiants broke their oaths beforehand. I assumed that the listeners went into exile on the shattered plains before the day of recreance. At this point shard blades didn’t require pommel set gems…
A couple of rather significant assumptions I know – any thoughts how the listeners acquired their shards?
So, I hope this isn’t a stupid question, but did Gavilar have two black spheres then? One he gave to Eshonai, and one he gave to Szeth?
@21 Not a stupid question, but yeah he did have two. In a previous reading Brandon did of the prologue, Gavilar even tells Eshonai something like “Take that one. I have another.” Just one of the many tiny differences between the old version and this new one.
And Venli was involved in getting Szeth… Interesting. Combined with the voice in the Rhythms, that’s somewhat foreboding.
@21. It makes more sense to have left that bit of info in. It seems inconsistent otherwise.
@22 I can only assume he removed it for a reason that will later become more clear.
Besides, if Eshonai thought Gavilar had another black sphere, I would think that she would attempt to obtain it if it’s so dangerous. Even if the Parshendi kill Gavilar, someone else could follow through with his plan.
@23, I have to agree, if Gavilar told Eshonai he had a second black sphere they likely would have given Szeth orders to take it and bring it to them, or to destroy it if possible. But this is just speculation until we learn more.
As far as Venli goes, I wonder if she was in Scholar form at this time and if that had something to do with Klade hearing the voice as well
@19 First, the shardblades don’t need stormlight infused gems to function… there needs to be a gemstone incorporated into the blade so it can be bonded, but once it’s bonded it’s been stated in the series that the gemstone doesn’t need to be infused for the blade to be summoned and released.
Second, you’re confusing stormlight infused gems and fabrials… gemstones are naturally infused with stormlight if they are left out in a highstorm, humans didn’t invent anything for that. Stormlight infused gemstones are what shardplate uses.
What the alethi supposedly invented was a means of trapping spren inside gemstones, this is how fabrials are crafted, and it is different than simply infusing a gemstone with stormlight.
I see no reason why dullform parshendi would have been unable to leave some gems out in a highstorm to power their plate. How they got the plate and blades is a separate mystery.
The Parshendi most definitely have infused gems. Kaladin used the ones woven into their beards at the end of WoK.
Soo, die Gavilar also have Visions?
– Knows Stuff of the past noone else does
– wants to “unite them”
@27 Yes, he did. He was on his way to becoming a Bondsmith, and also received visions like Dalinar did.
Also… Eshonai seems surprised here that there’s a spren trapped in the fabrial. WoR said that they learned to trap spren from the humans, and it seems this may be the moment when that happens. If she had already learned to trap spren, she wouldn’t have been in awe and surprised.
But if that’s the case, what is it that the humans are mimicking? Is this confirmation that Parshendi have gemhearts inside them, which enable their form change? I’m not sure what else she could mean.
Hmm, I’m not so sure about that. I think she’s surprised because the humans figured out how to do what they already do.
@29 nope. From Words of Radiance:
Well that’s that way it should be, after all, make love not war.
But then we would only have romance novels and no fantasy.
The odd thing about Venli and the voice in the Rhythms is that the voice helped to stave off the desolation for 6 more years. Without its advice, they may not have had a way to stop Gavilar, and his plan would have been finished that much more quickly.
Are we assuming Szeth’s Oathstone is the same as the black sphere Gavilar showed Eshonai, or is it known fact that they are both the same thing? My memory isn’t what it used to be.
My guess for the next two prologues are Taravangian or Venli and then possibly Gavilar
@19 my guess is that they got the blades and plates by just finding them around Natanatan. We know from the chasms that some Parshendi carry weapons that seem to beyond their capabilities to make. In this prologue we see that even though they haven’t taken up permanent residence at Narak, the Parshendi are aware of the shattered plains and likely explored it to some extent. The plains are thought to have been shattered during Aharietiam so it’s likely that some Radiants were killed and their bodies/shards were unrecoverable.
@27 Gavilar was the original recipient of the visions. I believe it was Graves who mentioned in WoR that Gavilar had visions.
@19 my guess is that they got the blades and plates by just finding them around Natanatan. We know from the chasms that some Parshendi carry weapons that seem to beyond their capabilities to make. In this prologue we see that even though they haven’t taken up permanent residence at Narak, the Parshendi are aware of the shattered plains and likely explored it to some extent. The plains are thought to have been shattered during Aharietiam so it’s likely that some Radiants were killed and their bodies/shards were unrecoverable.
@27 Gavilar was the original recipient of the visions. I believe it was Graves who mentioned in WoR that Gavilar had visions.
@30 – I think “learned that capturing spren was possible from the humans…” is the line that gives us an answer to the question. Before Eshonai had met Gavilar, they just went into the storms singing a certain rhythm and hoping for the right spren to come along and bond with them.
Eshonai states “Captive like in a gemheart, she thought, attuning Awe. They’ve built devices that mimic how we apply the forms?” Which makes me think that the parshendi might have assumed that capturing spren was something that happened in nature through gemhearts, or during a highstorm when they sought to change forms. It hadn’t dawned on them to capture them ahead of time and use them for the bonding. Now that they knew you could, they figured out exactly how to do it after the feast when they fled back home.
As for the next two point of views, it doesn’t make sense to me that it would be from a Herald’s perspective. It wasn’t until the end of WoR that we had any meaningful interaction from one of them beyond broken rantings. Unless the next couple of books bring them into play more, I doubt we’ll see anything from their viewpoint for a while.
If I had to guess, I would say that Venli would be book 4’s perspective (especially with her hearing a voice that set things into motion…), and then I could see a viewpoint from King Gavilar being very interesting and probable for the 5th book to tie everything together.
Interesting. But why did Gavilar insist on bringing back gods and starting a war in the first place? Is it just the price he is willing to pay in order to restore Honor? Why exactly Alethkar needs to be united? So many questions.
Five words in and I already want to curse Brandon out. He’s giving us Eshonai’s view of the feast, after what he did to her? Storms take him.
@33 – Szeth’s Oathstone and the black sphere are separate and unrelated objects.
Last week I was complaining that we still don’t know anything about the black gemstone Gavilar gave Szeth. Halfway through the prologue I got my answer.
Sanderson holds his card close for 2 full books, then lays it out during the prologue of the 3rd. He did a similar thing with Jasnah’s info dump to Shallan last book. It’s nice to get answers, but the matter-of-fact manner of the reveal really kills the aura of mystery.
Are they releasing the 3 chapters individually spaced throughout the day?
@38 – Most of your questions are answered in the prologue above. Gavilar wanted to create a war so that the Heralds would return. He spoke about how the world is stuck in place. He needs something to unite the people.
@38 “Unite Them” is the command that Dalinar gets over and over in the visions, and Gavilar got the visions before Dalinar did. As to creating a new Desolation so that the Heralds would be “forced” to come back, that was certainly the goal of Amaram and the Sons of Honor.
as far as viewpoints for book 4/5. Do we know if wit/hoid was there?
@42 Chapters 1-3 are next week, the 29th. Today is just the prologue.
@40 We weren’t talking about the oathstone, we were talking about the other black sphere that Gavilar gives Szeth before he dies. One to Eshonai, one to Szeth, which he has apparently hidden away.
@40 Wait, never mind, I misread. I agree with you, the oathstone is completely separate.
Dan @47 – you might notice that my comment @40 was addressing the question @33…. just sayin’…
And you figured that out while I was typing… :)
I didn’t read any of the comments, but here are mines.
This prologue is different than the one I read several weeks back. I haven’t gone through the work of comparing both of them and I tend to read quickly whenever I am on the computer (as opposed to a book), but it seems like Brandon has thickned it up. This chapter reads more easily than previous Parshendis chapters which means either Brandon improves his portrayal for them by taking heed of commentaries from readers or I got used to them. I think I might even prefer this prologue to the other ones as it does give more insight onto the events, I found more interesting to read than the Szeth and the Jasnah one.
My thoughts were for Eshonai’s character. I noted, when I first read it, how Brandon has taken care to flesh out her former self as unreliable, curious, always leaving in the middle of work, constantly peeking behind closed doors. Ever since, I have taken those descriptions as the benchmark for the Willshapers. It may be hasty, but I personally do not think it a hasard Brandon saw fit to have her describe in such ways. Her personality as the Explorer has also gotten more background which I appreciate as it does help me create a better link with her character.
My other thoughts were for Gavilar… I never liked Gavilar. Ever since reading WoK, I felt the things Navani left unsaid were important, were meant to draft a different portrayal of Gavilar than the one filled with glory, love and awe Dalinar left for us. There has always been something incredibly fishy about Gavilar and this prologue does confirm it. He meant to launch a Desolation in order to create a threat for people to unite under him to fight. Gavilar cannot perceive his kingdom would remain united unless it has to face a common enemy. He fears succession. This made me wonder what Gavilar’s thought were for his own son? Did he have issues towards leaving the reign to him? Brandon told us, on Reddit, how Gavilar started up as a 4th dahn lighteyed and wasn’t a contender for the next Highprince until he fought to earn the title.
Why?
Why was Gavilar so obsessed over conquering both the Kholinar princedom and Alethkar only to grow indecently worried his “kingdom” wouldn’t survive him and thus needed to create a mass disaster to force it to remain united? Little did he know it would be his death which would serve to create a common foe to fight likely being the only reason Elhokar has managed to maintain it.
This being said, the Parshendis being willing to make the ultimate sacrifice to prevent the Desolation truly comes across as honorable, in an odd kind of way. So far, we have been told the Parshendis were the bad guys, the enemy, but this prologue does highlight what I feel might become a truth as we keep on reading.
Gavilar, Dalinar, their branch of the Kholin family, they were the bad guys. I am keen to read more.
@46. dendrophobe “Chapters 1-3 are next week, the 29th. Today is just the prologue.”
In the words of Ulysses Everett McGill “A third a gopher would only arouse my appetite without beddin’ ‘er back down.”
@45 yes, Hoid was there. I think he is/pretending to be drunk and says something like “can you see me?” to Szeth.
@52 That was “Have you seen me?”, and most theorizing I’ve seen has been that that’s a Herald, likely Jezrien. But I don’t think we’ve gotten an answer either way.
I think the thought of Hoid being drunk though is… odd. I’m not sure why.
@52, actually we don’t know if Hoid was there, although since it is such a momentous event, you’d think he would be. But the drunk is suspected to be the Herald Jeziren, as Nale refers to him as being a drooling idiot, or something of that nature – I don’t recall the exact quote
Edit – Ninja’d by @53!
Wetlandernw@14: Chanaranach has definitely been seen onscreen by at least one character at least one time in the first two books.
Did I miss somewhere where it was explained what the black stone is? or has it not been explained? or is it, as the thought came to me, the spren that was ancient and crucial?
I thought I wouldn’t be interested in the prologue but surprisingly I found it really interesting to read! I thought it interested to think about Eshonai’s progression as a character. I also really liked the line, “Apparently the parshmen were expensive, and considered high-quality slaves. The listeners had been told this, as if it were for some reason supposed to make them feel proud” just because I thought it was really relatable as a POC.
It was also really interesting to read Eshonai’s thoughts on Gavilar. I feel like we’ve only gotten a look at his character through people that have really liked him or worshiped him.
Excited to read the next three chapters next week! I hope it’s a continuation of the Kaladin chaper that was released way earlier.
Before this, I’d assumed the Parshendi were a group of Parshmen who’d begun waking up and that it was part of events leading up to a Desolation. Now, it sounds like they’re descended from a group who broke free of Odium and managed to maintain their sentience.
Then, they find out the guy they’re making a treaty with is planning to bring Odium back. But, trying to stop him set the whole thing in motion.
Now, I’m actually wishing the Parshendi had done a better job with their assassination and hidden their part in it or made it look like a accident so the rest of this didn’t happen.
Samadai @56 – There’s a lot of speculation on the black stone, but no confirmation as of yet. The primary theories have to do with the Unmade, because of that weird seeming-to-glow-but-not-give-light kind of thing.
Can’t wait for the next chapters
Wow. That was intense.
I love reading chapters from Eshonai’s perspective, for at least two reasons – number one, we get a closer look at Parshendi culture and thought-process (I’d have to look it up to be sure, but I think we saw some new Rhythms here that weren’t in WoR), and number two, we get to see what Alethi look like from an outside perspective. Specifically, the idea of Alethi as being emotionally opaque due to not speaking in Rhythms, and the concept of humans being all forms at once, and the different drives of those “forms” warring within them, is fascinating. It makes me wonder how different it would feel to have only one main drive or focus, or for all my emotions to be on display all the time. It would definitely have some serious implications.
I also loved seeing more of young Eshonai’s innocence and love of exploration. I thought the awe of the giant map was particularly poignant, reacting both to that love of exploration and the sheer artistry of the map itself. It also makes me hurt for her current situation. Assuming she survives her fall down the chasms (which I am, because A) she was wearing Shardplate at the time and B) we haven’t seen a body), she’s still under the influence of voidspren. I would love to see her escape Odium’s influence and return to her exploration.
I was pleasantly surprised to find that the Parshendi loved the idea of fabrials – with their relationship to bonding spren in the storms, I wondered if they would have been appalled by the thought of trapping the spren.
I’ve seen speculation in the comments that the voice speaking to Klade is Venli, but I don’t see that in the text. To be clear, I don’t specifically see evidence that it isn’t, either, but I’m curious as to what leads people to that conclusion.
So Gavilar had 5 people with him, one of whom was Amaram. I am now very curious as to who the others are. Possibly Restares? Presumably, there’s been plenty of time between him running into Jasnah and getting to the meeting room (and/or the others could have met Gavilar and Amaram there). Gavilar’s desire to “unite them” clearly speaks to the fact that he was getting the visions from Tanavast that Dalinar later got, but his execution of that idea is incredibly frustrating. “Unite them by creating a massive threat” is very comparable to the Sons of Honor attempting to “reinstate the Knights Radiant by bringing back the Desolations” in that they’re both good goals that are being accomplished by utterly foolhardy means.
One last thing that I noticed – If Eshonai has the black sphere, how does Gavilar have it to give to Szeth after the assassination? Or was that a different sphere?
But let’s discuss the other 5 that left the room….
@61 It wasn’t that Venli was the voice, rather she was present when Klade was led by the voice to find/purchase Szeth. The fact that she was present makes her suspect. The idea is that she’s somehow related, not that she’s the one speaking.
And there were two black spheres. Gavilar gave one to Eshonai, and kept one which he eventually gave to Szeth before dying.
Venli, I continue to hate you. Eshonai, you continue to make me weep.
@@@@@ 63 – Thanks for the clarification. So now we have two mysterious black spheres floating around somewhere. I’m beginning to suspect that Venli’s discovery of Stormform was influenced at least in part by Eshonai’s sphere.
The black spheres probably contain captured voidspren, but if they are stormspren, wouldn’t they seem familiar to Eshonai when Venli gives her the captured spren for her transformation?
@59 wetlander, my pet theory is the black spheres are dawnshards that have bound a voidish creature
@19 Not only do the shard blades only use the gems for initial bonding but the shard plates technically only need stormlight, not attached gems. We saw this when Kaladin lost the stormlight he had infused to the helmet he was holding while fighting in Adolin’s duel. So the shard plates could be pulling stormlight from any infused gems the Parshendi are wearing/carrying.
regarding the spheres – they aren’t both black. The one in this prologue is described as “an aura of blackness … faintly violet” The one in WoK is “completely dark … with a light that was black”
If there are 32 chapters + prologue, and starting from next week there will be three per week…
Prologue + 3*10 weeks + 2 chapters
then it means that the last two chapters will be released on November 7th, a week before the Oathbringer?
@70 – Yes, that was done on purpose
@69 – Oh, that’s a good catch. Whatever’s in them, they might still be different from each other.
If so, you’d think Gavilar wouldn’t want to give away one of the stones, but perhaps the stones are able to influence those around them…who knows, maybe that’s the way that Odium is able to continue influencing people despite his current state…
Wow!!!! I had to read this prologue 3 times to grasp just how much information is contained in it. I think it’s safe to say that the ‘old man’ in the room with Gavilar is Taravangian since his theories coincide with Gavilar’s hope to return evil to bring back Honor. I’m very curious who the ‘crucial spren’ is that the humans trapped in order to prevent transformation of the parshmen. Odium? He’s not a spren but a shard…. but what spren is so important that it could prevent transformation? Maybe a spren equivalent to the Stormfather who was bonded with “God”(I don’t remember his name). I think that Venli’s part in all of this could be possible because Venli may have approached Gavilar originally and told him that in order to reach the 5 that he’d have to convince Eshonai or someone else with great influence.
I loved every word of this though! GREAT JOB BRANDON!! KEEP IT COMING!
Talking about the voice that was speaking to the rhythms, I was thinking about the thing Cenn said when he died in one of the flashbacks in WoK. “‘He watches!’ the boy hissed. ‘The black piper in the night. He holds us all in his palm… playing a tune that no man can hear!'” I’m just speculating, but might it have something to do with this voice? Speaking to the rhythms=playing a tune? Maybe? And “that no man can hear”, because only someone who isn’t human, but Parshendi, can hear it?
Also, I love that this is happaning! This is so much better than waiting untill November.
This is wonderful! I thought we would start with the (already released) Kaladin chapters but this is MUCH better and allows a great discussion every week!
@69 good catch, two different black spheres. So perhaps the red spheres (like Eshonai uses in WoR) are “regular” voidspren and these black spheres are “special” / “higher” voidspren/parshendi gods? Perhaps the Unmade? To compare it to Honor: the red sphere ons similar to Syl, the black sphere is similar to the stormfather? Does that make sense?
@75 That’s exactly what I was thinking in regards to the different spren vs highspren… I think this is going to be awesome because it can be assumed then that some parshendi will bond high ‘voidspren’ and have increased strength and abilities just like Dalinar will undoubtedly be unique since he bonded the Stormfather.
So, Taravangian and Amaram have both talked about bringing the voidbringers back. Amaram was clearly a trusted advisor of Gavilar, so he may have been working with him during his time of his visions. Why didn’t he step up to defend Dalinar? Why did he spend 6 years fighting petty land grab battles and not make his way to the shattered plains?
There are so many questions, these are just a few.
I LOVE that we see this from Eshonai’s pov. And see how Gavilar was trying to bring back the voidbringers, and how Dalinar is trying to fight them.
This is going to be a wild ride!
Now I understand a little better why Eshonai was trying to get the listeners to learn to make art.
Wow, finally something new and something blue :)
* interesting to see that there was a “voice” that influenced Klade and Venli at that point in time. Also interesting to see that voice appeared *after* the parshendi are in possession of the black sphere. Would it be safe to assume that Venli will be the owner of the black sphere for the next 6 years, and because of the sphere she gets as evil as she is at the end of WoR? (and the voice in the sphere also helped her to make the discoveries she made, including probably how to trap the spren like humans do?)
* we should all ack that Venli was not evil then (just easily influenced). She went with Klade to hire an assassin to kill Gavilar to *prevent* the return of Odium.
* we finally have an understanding of what the black spheres are – a “special type of gem” that can hold a “god”, proabably containing splinters of Odium (a.k.a. the Unmade). Interesting, and dangerous. This means that (type of) gem can also be used to hold Syl, the Stormfather, or any of the Radiant Spren. (Also this means that Syl&co cannot be trapped in “normal” fabrials, which is something that I previously feared). Probably Odium, after killing Honor, backed off because the humans (Radiants) started trapping him, and this is why there was no more Desolations after Honor died…
* hmm, I wonder where the gems that can hold a “god” are from ……….
* in case this needs to be said… Gavilar is probably the founder of the Sons of Honor, and the organization was created because of Gavilar’s visions
@75 I don’t think there is “regular” voidspren and “higher” voidspren – I think all voidspren are parts/shards of Odium (the difference is the amount of power/investiture the shard has), and I think maybe any sphere that can hold these spren (even Syl) needs to be “special”.
The black spheres are “special” – but I don’t think they are “special” in provenience (they are not alien gems :D), but maybe special in how they are created… We’ve seen only 1-element gems (e.g. ruby), maybe there’s a special way to combine elements to create more powerful gems – e.g. Syl gives access to 2 surges, so maybe you need to combine 2 (specific) elements to create a gem that can hold honorspren… and another 2 elements to create a gem that can hold cryptics, etc…
memeka @79 – Umm… Klade bought his slave earlier in the day; Eshonai thought about it while she was in the big loading area. That was well before she went wandering, found Gavilar, and received the sphere.
I am already sad that books 4 and 5 aren’t out.
So there’s at least two black spheres that we’re held by the remnants of old voranism. (My guess) one was hid by Szeth but we don’t know what happened to the one eashonai had.
Back to the discussion about other assassination viewpoints I think jasnah’s one is very important considering what was happening in kholinar at the end of wor, as far as we know her assassin is still a handmaiden of the queen, it also gave us our another view of shadesmar and how/when jasnah bonded ebony.
@81 … ummmm yes, even more interesting that the voice was *before* the sphere was near!
Future prologue POV: Aesudan ( Elhokar’s wife). Presumably she’s dead or fled following rioting in Kohlinar. Jasnah considered killing her, but instead watched. It’s guessed Dalinar was keeping an eye on her. There’s something there.
Venli is certainly corrupt. When is the question.
The five with Gavilar? Amaram, Restares (old man in a robe), one other soldier and two women? These women intrigue me. Assuming neither was Navani, who then? Is Aesudan one?
*attunes Skepticism*
I’m honestly not sure Odium is still “alive.” It really wouldn’t surprise me if all that was left of him was something like the Stormfather, if that, and everything that’s been happening lately is because of mortals screwing around with things that they don’t understand.
If Odium is around, it seems like he’s got about as much influence as Ruin does in the first Mistborn book, probably less. And, honestly, I think I’d prefer things with him having as little influence over these events as possible.
*attunes Sadness*
Because …everything here is increasingly screwed up and, if the people screwing it up are doing it because “Odium made them do it” then they’re not responsible. I need Amaram, Taravangian, Sadeas, Venli, Nale and all the others to be responsible for their actions for them to be meaningful antagonists.
A Navani or Elhokar prologue might be interesting. While it’s hard to see now how their perspectives would add insight to the event as much as Eshonai did, it’s kind of hard to beat the insight of a parshendi when their motives were deliberately unclear early on the new insight front. Still, who knows what we might learn. Things changed for them both in a big way that night and riding along could be heart-wrenching and interesting.
And I wonder who were the two women in the room with Gavilar?
@25, @34 and @68.
I can accept that the Listeners may have found dead shardblades lying around the place but how did they bond them?
This requires addition of a stormlight infused gem to the dead shardblade. There is no indication how the dull-form Listeners realised that this was possible. Of course they may have won blades from shardbearers during conflict on the shattered plane that had attached gems but I’m not aware that there is any indication that this is the case.
So either, they bond shardblades some other way, the shardblades that they found already had gems attached or ‘something else we don’t know about yet’.
Just Curious what happened to the stone after eshonai gave it to the five? Did venli get her hands on it?
@85 The 5 in the room with Gavilar, if Taravangian’s is the old man in robes then one of the females may be Adrotagia.
I really like Eshonai as a character. She seems like a genuinely good person and is so full of awe and wonder and curiosity. I hope she can purge the void spren and get back to her former self. In WOR, it was so creepy and sad how her inner voice screamed inside her head at the horror of being trapped in stormform. Perhaps her fall into the chasm will trigger a change so she can be free of it. Maybe she dies and is revived somehow, and the spren will be released. Once she is free, perhaps she can find the refugees who escaped stormform and they can team up with the forces of good.
It’s interesting that Eshonai notes the parshmen are in dullform. I thought they had no form. On the wiki it is referred to as slaveform, which is not a true form. Maybe the Listeners had not yet distinguished between the two and assumed that it was dullform.
Gavilar and his cronies are looking more and more sketchy with each prologue that we get. After reading this, my views on the Parshendi/Alethi conflict have nearly been reversed from when the series began. Venli and the void spren have changed things, but when the conflict began I think the Parshendi were a peaceful culture who was screwed over by Gavilar’s plans to bring about a war or desolation. I hope that some remnant of the Parshendi can continue to hold their original ways and values, and resist being bonded by the void spren.
Lot to unpack here. I’m still in the midst of my reread, so I’ll wait to join the comments in earnest until I finish Words of Radiance.
This prologue definitely sheds some light on the Parshendi motivations behind the assassination and makes the action seem a bit more honorable. It doesn’t however do anything to explain the brutality behind it. Szeth had specific instructions to more or less make a scene and slaughter as many people as possible in the process. As far as I know we don’t know who was behind that aspect of his orders or the reasoning behind it but it had to be more than just “prevent Gavilar from bringing back the gods”
It seems like “who is good” and “who is bad” is a theme of this series..that’s interesting.
@94: It definitely plays on those themes.
Killing King Gavilar while being honored guest at a feast made to celebrate a treaty in between your two nations is definitely not honorable. It might however have delayed the Desolation by several crucial years. It allowed the rise of Dalinar Kholin, having presumably grown into a better man than his brother.
The Parshendis brought dishonor upon themselves, they knew they were likely dooming their people through their actions, but they did it to prevent something far worst from happening.
They suffered and ultimately died so others could live and prosper. It is only heartbreaking the Desolation happened anyway.
There will always be those to argue killing King Gavilar was totally, totally wrong and dishonorable, to argue he should been dealth with differently but, upon reading this prologue, I personally believe the Parshendis did the right thing. Gavilar had to die: this man was evil, there was nothing to stop him from acting, he is above any justice as who would trial their own king and for what? For trying to launch a Desolation? You can’t prove it and Gavilar is too strong, too high placed to be dealt with. He was an egocentric, arrogant, self-inflated megalomaniac self-named emperor: the only way to deal with those is basically to kill them.
My perspective is thus the Parshendis were the good guys here, they did good even if it wasn’t honorable as honor is not the answer to all plights. The story has however been twisted to have us believe Gavilar Kholin was a great good man, killed at the end of the evil Parshendis. Funny how the truth might turn out to be very different. What do they say again? History is always written by the winners.
Matthew @93 –
Remember that while Szeth was doing his thing, the rest of the Parshendi packed up and hit the road, with only the Five remaining behind to take the blame and provide further distraction. My guess is that his orders were specifically to focus attention inward so that the departure of the rest would go relatively unnoticed until it was too late. The Five were willing to sacrifice their lives (and that of their slave, since they couldn’t have known he’d survive) for the sake of the rest of their people.
It does seem like they could have confronted him about it, but in-world, what reason did they have to think it was worth the risk? and of course, if they’d done that and succeeded, we wouldn’t have a story to read…
People on Roshar don’t know the difference between spren and shards.
“Unite them”, and the first thing he can think of is to bring a frikkin’ desolation? What has Navani not told us about Gavilar? I agree with @53 Gepeto. That guy is so fishy, he can breahe underwater!
Also, I second Taravangian being the old guy who leaves the room. In one of his flashback chapters he was like “I’m sorry, Gavilar, old friend, for having to kill your brother” or something. Whereas the chain of events is somewhat dizzying. If I have that correct?
Gavilar needs to “unite them”, recruits T.
Gavilar seems to think that a Desolation is a splendid idea. (Probably T. agrees? Or doesn’t know? Ah, need intel!)
Gavilar gets Szethed. *
T. doesn’t think that the Desolation is a splendid idea anymore.
T. gets Nightwatchered, creates The Diagram. *
The Diagram decides that a united Alethkar is in the way of surviving the Desolation and that Dalinar needs to go.
*temporal order unclear, to me, at least – speculation in order to make sense?
Also, loved the Listener POV. Really the best so far, I was immediately able to switch into their mindset. Also how she’s humming to terror and expects Gavilar to understand, it’s so brilliant. I often feel like that from over at the autism spectrum “how do you not know that I feel xxx? Oh, right, because you don’t.”
And my pet black spheres. That one was what drew me into the gaping void that is the coppermind and needs to be filled with desolations. And now it gets a twin. Knowing that a second one is around would have altered the Parshendis’ actions a lot, so I agree, he cannot have told them.
GAH! So many chapters! I can finally speculate real-time!
Edit:
I always assumed that the Parshendi would have had a very good reason to kill Gavilar – I didn’t understand what motivation he could have had, so I assumed Kelsier-level plots in plots. Turns out it was just megalomaia. I’m a tad disappointed. :D
@98 but there was plots within plots going on he says himself he was being watched and when Szeth murders him he asks how ordered it and was surprised that it was the parshendi. So there’s something more going on beyond what we know.
Looking forward to Oathbringer. I guess I am the only one who hopes Eshonai does not survive her fall. IMO, a story is more authentic when a good person dies. So far, I think Eshonai is as much a good person as anybody so far. This prologue helps demonstrate (as if we have not learned it already) that there is no good and evil in SA. It is more us and them. Most time in RL, there is no good and evil. Rather, it is just us and them.
I wonder who owned Szeth before Klade bought him.
Count me among those who believe the old person in the room with Gavilar was Taravangian. As Nazar @44 said, Gavilar’s position (the need to bring about a Desolation so the Heralds will come back) is the same philosophy as Araman and the Sons of Honor. It is interesting that Gavilar implies that the Heralds are his gods. IIRC, most practioners of Vorinism think of the Almighty (i.e. God) as Honor. We know that Honor was Tanavast before Odium killed him and shattered the Honor Shard. Further, per Hoid, Tanavast was anything but a god. A good guy, but not a god. I wonder if Gavilar thinks of the Heralds as Gods or just said that to either manipulate Eshonai or so she would understand what he was talking about.
I wonder if Gavilar saw the complete cycle of visions. He certainly has a different interpretation than Dalinar.
Do we know if Taravangian went to the Nightwatcher before or after Gavilar’s death. If after, he may have been originally a member of the Sons of Honor. After creating the Diagram, he became the leader of the Diagramites.
BTW, what do we call the followers of the Diagram. If we do not have a formal name, I am proposing the Diagramites.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
“with a very special gemstone, you can hold even a god”…Am I the only person who thought of atium and lerasium, both very special metals that held the bodies of Shards? Could Roshar somehow have god gemstones like Scadrial has god metals?
But ahh, such a good prologue! Focused, mysterious, enlightening, with a totally new perspective on the events of that evening. I love getting into the mind of a Parshendi and seeing how differently their culture reads and expresses emotions.
And I like the parallel between Gavilar’s complaints that the world is drab, dull, lifeless, trapped in transition, &c, and Eshonai’s observations about how his words seem dead and lifeless and he seems oddly in transition between warform and mateform.
AndrewHB@100 – Speculation is that Liss owned Szeth prior to his purchase by Klade. Liss mentions in Jasnah’s prologue that she sold her servant to a slaver a few weeks ago, and described him as “Too good a servant…Storming creepy, that Shin fellow was.”
It is possible that in between Liss selling him to a slaver and Klade purchasing him from a slaver, Szeth (assuming it was him) could have been sold again, but that’s rather unlikely in my opinion.
Edit: Okay, not just speculation. The prologue makes it explicit that Liss owned Szeth but that she “claimed she hadn’t known about his strange powers.”
Actually, if you take Wetlander’s theory re: Liss and then factor in Nalan and (presumably) Kalak also being aware of Szeth’s Blade and abilities, it can lead to all kinds of questions regarding the Heralds presence there, Gavilar’s plan and subsequent assassination, the Voice that Klade heard directing him to press Szeth about his abilities and ultimately purchase him, and who may have ultimately been behind Gavilar’s assassination.
I see a lot of speculation in the thread above that Taravangian may have been there that night. But I think we need to be careful with that assumption. The people of The Diagram are definitely not the same people as the Sons of Honor. I think it more likely that the older man in the room may have been Restares – who (I am fairly certain) is a key player in the Sons of Honor (Amaram clearly takes advice/guidance from him), but we haven’t had him identified on-screen yet.
There is so much behind the motivations of the players that we don’t know. Gavilar mentions the phrase “Unite Them” – which indicates that he was having the same visions as Dalinar, and may have eventually been on the path to becoming a surgebinder (clearly he had not progressed enough though – otherwise he could have healed from the fall), but he is taking actions that are wildly different to those Dalinar takes when he inherits the visions. My perspective on this is that their own subjective viewpoints are clouding their interpretation of what they see. Just as Dalinar thought that the visions were telling him to “trust Sadeus”, Gavilar has been doing the same thing – fitting the one-sided conversation in the visions in with his own aims and goals. I don’t think its too far to conclude that he may have asked a question – “We of the Sons of Honor, think that we should bring back the voidbringers – should we do so?”, and the voice in the vision/recording answers with a confident “Yes”. And from that perspective, he thinks he’s doing exactly what he believes is right.
Interesting though, about the two spheres: He gives the black/dark violet one to Eshonai (who Gavilar clearly knows can bind to voidspren[?]) without a care in the world. But then with his dying breath, he gives a second “completely dark” sphere to Szeth with the instruction “You must take this. They must not get it”. My questions: (a) Who are “They”? and (b) why? If “They” are the Parshendi, then why is it so important to make sure they don’t get it? But if its not them.., and if “They” are someone else (the Ghostbloods, the Diagram, or some other group we don’t even know about yet?) then… who … and why?
I think Venli must hear the voice in the rhythms like Klade and that’s why she was name-dropped alongside him in the Szeth purchase process. She has to have some source of knowledge that hasn’t been identified yet, and a voidish voice sounds about right.
Peter @@@@@ 55, thanks for stopping by and teasing the Betas (and the rest of us). But no way am I going to find that one.
@104: Peter is not really teasing, he just confirmed what some of us had already guessed a long while ago as there is a series of WoB which definitely points within this direction. Sorry for not having the exact wordings.
1) Brandon was asked if we have met a member from each Radiant order and he said yes.
2) Afterwards, Brandon was asked if he considered the Heralds to be members of their order and he said yes.
3) Later, he was asked to give something away for the Dustbringer’s order and he said we would have to wait for one to become a main character to find out anything.
Adding those three WoB together, we pieced out the following:
1) We have not met a Dustbringer Radiant or proto-Radiant yet within the story. The phrasing says we have to wait for a Dustbringer to become a main character, not we had to wait for an existing character to become one: a slight linguistic difference unless my memory is wrong. This is how I personally interpreted it, but as always I may be wrong.
2) Since we do know we have met a member of this order via the first WoB, only Chana is left, via the second WoB. Brandon confirms he would consider her as a member of the order.
3) It is thus highly probable we have seen Chana within the story.
Peter just confirmed it was the case which gives credence to the above analysis/interpretation.
A couple people have mentioned the assumption that Teravangian had gone to the nightwatcher after Gavilar’s assassination. There is an excerpt from The Diagram where Teravangian mentioned the possibility of creating a truthless to use as a weapon which kinda seems to indicate that he orchestrated Szeth becoming Truthless which means he would have had to go to the Nightwatcher before the assassination. That being said apparently Brandon Sanderson has said that he went to the Nightwatcher after the assassination (at least probably) http://www.theoryland.com/intvmain.php?i=1080#9
Has anyone mentioned this yet? I started re-reading WoK and just had the “aha” moment of realizing that the titular Oathbringer is the name of Dalinar’s shardblade that he traded to Sadeas. Really curious now why that is important enough to be the title of the entire book and what that portends for Adolin.
@107 – I’ve noticed. Not sure, though, if it refers to the blade or Dalinar himself, as he is now a Bondsmith and most unite people. Or perhaps it refers to his founding of the Knights Radiant, who have to take up the old Oaths.
@107, 108:
There’s no way it doesn’t also refer to the sword as well. What is it’s current disposition? I’m only 25% through my reread of WoR.
I’m also wondering how Cosmere-aware Gavilar was. Jasnah obviously isn’t at this point in the story, but becomes so. The Ghostbloods obviously have members who are aware of the greater Cosmere, so it stands to reason that the Sons of Honor might as well.
@109 – current disposition is unknown. Sadeas owned it but died just before the end of WoR. It should go to Sadeas’ heir, but I don’t know if he has one.
@77 – Two reasons Amaram likely stayed behind in Alethkar vs fighting on the shattered plains; 1) He’s beholden to Sadeus and would have to do what Sadeus required of him, and 2) he was hunting for the black sphere Gavilar gave to Szeth for safekeeping.
I’m curious to find out what the Parshendi did with the sphere Gavilar gave to Eshonai during there impromptu meeting. I’m also rather curious as to why (or what drove) Gavilar to reveal his dastardly plans to those meddling kids. Why tell Eshonai this? Did he really think it would be a great idea to let them in on his secret plans? Was there something (or someone) else driving him to divulge? As an aside to that, if they’ve had a prolonged exposure to the Alethi, why does Eshonai still seem so surprised (?) that they can’t or don’t understand the various attunements used as part of Parshendi communication? She keeps expecting Gavilar to pick up on her emotions during the entire exchange and it’s just not happening. It kind of reminds me of Hoid’s beauty parable with Shallan in WoR.
@107
As for the book title, it has to refer to an in-world book. Since Brandon told us some Shardblades have a history and names which transcend generations, I would hasard a guess and say the book refers to Oathbringer, the Shardblade. Why is it famous? Sadeas certainly does act as if this Shardblade meant more than others…
@109-110:
The ownership of Oathbringer following the events of WoR is iffy… As far as we know, Shards are being passed down from fathers to sons upon the first one either retiring or dying of natural causes. However, we also know if you kill a Shardbearer, then those Shards’s ownership are being transferred down to you. Say, if one princedom invades the other and it results into one man killing its Shardbearer’s Highprince, the those Shards now belong to the man and not any heir said Highprince might have had. I think.
I would thus say, technically, since he killed Sadeas, Oathbringer now belongs to Adolin. Practically, since he left it behind, I guess his ownership might be challenged (he never claimed it). Either way, it will be interesting to read what will befall Oathbringer, especially now dead-Shards are bound to eventually become obsolete.
I tried to read the Wheel of Time series between WoR and Oathbringer. Not gonna happen. Didn’t know what I was getting into. lol
@112 I suspect to have a legitimate claim to a shard, it needs to be a sanctioned duel or open battle. Otherwise it encourages people to knife shardbearers in dark alleys.
Great prologue! And, of course, it will be great to while away the time until publication by chewing over these delicious early-release chapters.
I have always loved Eshonai and this installment made me love her even more. I really hope that she manages to escape the Stormform and remains an important character. Yes, I agree that she was a prototypical Willshaper before the war. But these 6 years, not to mention the horror of what the Stormform made her do may have changed her.
And Gavilar – wow, the dude was evil. No wonder that Amaram seems to have been his right-hand man in this matter. I guess that he didn’t include Jasnah because of her atheism – and because he knew that she’d recoil in horror from his plans and try to oppose them?
I agree with people, who think that old robed guy was Taravangian. And I am also curious about the women – though Aesudan’s (in)actions don’t seem to fit somebody so deeply initiated into the mysteries of this world. Letting Kholinar fall apart from inside was the opposite of what her father-in-law intended, after all.
Which makes me wonder – was the Stormfather intentionally screwing with humanity by choosing the recepients for his visions, who seemed to be unsuitable? After all, he didn’t really want humanity to survive or to bond these people/ allow the Honor spren to bond. He was compelled to pass on Almighty’s recordings, but he seems to have done so in a way that he thought would do the least good. Dalinar, unexpectedly, managed to grow over his initial limitations, but from what we have know seen of Gavilar, he couldn’t have passed even the hurdle of the First Oath.
I disagree that Gavilar’s death actually delayed the Desolation – after all, it’s start depended on Talenel breaking. And Venli was clearly already manipulating events, by delivering Szeth to Parshendi elders with such suspiciously auspicious timing. But I am absolutely on Parshendi’s side for trying.
It is indeed very interesting to know what happened with the gem given to the Elders. As to Gavilar wanting Szeth to hide the other one… hm. This does seem odd. I mean, they have demonstrated that they weren’t on-board with his goals… or maybe he had a plan of a very controlled release, one that would have allowed him to optimally prepare and in his last moments he again misunderstood Parshendi and thought that they were somehow going to release the Unmade in a fashion that would allow them to get a jump on the Alethi?
But how could imprisonment of the 2 Unmade (which I assume the 2 spheres contained) have removed _all_ Form-spren from parshmen? Weren’t there lots of different Odium spren that gave them their many Forms? And how do parshmen reproduce, given that Parshendi need to be in mate-form to do so? Or… are dullform and slaveform also capable of reproduction? And on such a level that captive parshmen population could be easily maintained over millenia? But then, that’s pretty efficient, so why have mate-form at all?
Also, didn’t the Parshendi on the Shattered plains in WoK/WoR have not just the shards, but also soulcasters? Where did they get those, if they didn’t even know that fabrials were possible prior to the failed treaty negotiations? Not even humans know how to make them anymore, after all. And they weren’t mentioned as some recent discovery either.
Gepeto @112:
I doubt that dead shards will become obsolete – they are still the very best weapons, vastly superior over everything else for warriors who aren’t on the path to Radianthood.
We find out through the Death Rattles that people other than Gavilar and Dalinar also received the visions, so I’m not sure a guided force was behind who received them.
@115:
I think all forms are capable of mating. They just aren’t driven to it. They don’t experience lust. As far as how parshmen reproduce… I would venture to say they do as they are told by their human masters. They are bred.
@110, 112:
When I used the term “disposition”, I wasn’t meaning its new legal owner, more where was it. Because I couldn’t remember if Adolin took it, or left it. I guess he left it, so its current disposition is next to Sadeas’ cold, dead body.
@110, 112, and 118 – Adolin dropped the blade over a ledge, hiding it in some brush, before he left to hide his tracks.
Someone could make a movie of the Stormlight prologues and call it Vantage Point: Stormlight Edition
Is Vantage Point a remake of Rashomon?
@114: Yeah, you make a valid point which is why I said it was “iffy”. “Iffy” in the sense we do not exactly have all the data to make a conclusive statement. There was a WoB which stated how there would people to argue Sadeas provoked Adolin in a challenge and was answered in kind. If this line of thought becomes the most prevalent, then yes I would say Adolin now owns Oathbringer. The rational is there but there is no way of knowing if the story will walk those waters yet.
@115: By obsolete I meant they are seen in a rather negative light by the Radiants. Considering there used to be thousand of Radiants, back before the Recreance, while there are about 200 Shardbearers scattered across Roshar, I would argue the day will soon come where Radiants outnumber the Shardbearers. When this day arrives, the negative stigma associated to dead-Blades is likely to increase to the point where owning one may be seen as “shameful”. I would also argue in a world where Highstorms are likely to be infrequent or unpredictable, stormlight will be an issue. Whatever stormlight they can gather will likely not be wasted on Shardbearers, not when there are Radiants around who need it.
I am unconvinced owning Shards, especially Blades, will keep on being considered as a wonder for much longer.
@118: He put it on a window shelter or something along those lines. The question of whom owns it now actually remains relevant. Oathbringer will not remain there forever, it will be found, then what?
Two things:
We know that Nalan (the herald of justice) was at the treaty signing and we know that he is willing to do ANYTHING to stop the desolation from coming. I suspect that he may have had something to do with Gavilar spilling the beans to Eshonai which he may have known would cause them to become martyrs to prevent the desolation.
In regards to people speculating whether or not Eshonai IS alive… we KNOW that Eshonai survives the fall because Brandon has confirmed at a book signing I attended that she will be the backstory character in either book 4 or 5. That means that she DEFINATELY isn’t dead and WILL be a radiant since he’s also told us that each book will center on one radiant group and each radiant groups ‘leader’ will be a back-story character.
Barton @123 – Um… no? Brandon has repeatedly told us that just because someone has a flashback book coming, that doesn’t mean they’ll be alive during the main action of that book. We know who all the upcoming flashback characters are, and there’s no guarantee that a single one of them will live through “their book” – or even survive to the beginning of it.
I think you’re combining various comments together and making them say something they really don’t.
Am I the only one who was completely surprised about Gavilar? And why doesn’t Dalinar know about what his brother was up to? It seems like Navani must have known if she was working on fabrials for Gavilar.
We still don’t know what sent Dalinar to the Nightwatcher and why he had to forget his wife. It must be related.
Gepeto, @122: one of the things that’s been bothering me is this: if there were thousands of Radiants at the time of the recreance …. where are all the other shards? If a shard is a spren who died when the oaths were broken, shouldn’t there be one for every Knight at the time of the recreance?
Maybe only honorspren die as shardblades. Maybe there weren’t as many Knights Radiant as I’d thought. Maybe the other shardblades are … hidden, somewhere.
thatboi_kel, @111: crazy conspiracy theory interpretation: possession of the black sphere that Gavilar gave to the 5 renders one somehow susceptible to the influence of Odium (or one of the Unmade, perhaps). Gavilar was induced to tell Eshonai what he told them, because Odium/Unmade knew that would set in motion the events that would lead to the Parshendi voluntarily-ish bringing back their Gods. Venli, in possession of the sphere, was likewise corrupted.
@126: I think pretty much all the bonded spren of (most) of the orders ended up dead/frozen as shardblades. Pattern mentions in WoR that just about all of his kind were killed, and we know that Adolin’s blade is most likely to be an edgedancer blade (vines/crystals along the back edge – similar to a certain ShardFork we know and love). But reading through the chapter headers and what we see on-screen in Edgedancer, it appears that the Skybreakers are still around, and of course the stormfather is as well.
But you are onto a good question: Where are (and more importantly: who has) the rest of the blades that must be out there somewhere? And what does it mean?
@69 Well, there is a possibility that Shin eyes and Listener eyes respond to different light spectra. Like maybe Listeners can see UV and Shin can’t? Also, I haven’t read the earlier draft of the prologue that was released, but I’ve heard that Gavilar originally explicitly said he had two of them.
As for what the sphere contains, there’s been some speculation on Reddit that it doesn’t contain a spren at all, but that this is “Voidlight”, i.e. the Odium-equivalent of Stormlight. That seems quite likely since just before she was looking at a fabrial and could tell that it contained a spren. “We did it by capturing a spren” doesn’t seem to refer to the black sphere, but to some historical event back from when the Listeners were turned into parshmen.
Wetlandernw @124 If Eshonai is dead then how could she be the leader of an order of the knights radiant? I distinctly remember Brandon saying that 1) each order will have a book and 2) that their ‘main character/leader’ will be the focus of that order’s backstory in that order’s book.
I agree that authors need to learn to kill off their ‘good-guys’. This is one reason why I was disappointed when Szeth and Jasnah were both brought back. I love both of their characters but I also loved Ned Stark in the first GoT book but that didn’t stop him getting his head chopped off.
So, Gavilar wanted the Parshendi to start a war, and they promptly complied. Wonder if it was in Gavilar’s plan to be killed, or rather if it was the intent of the voice he was hearing.
Robert D West, @127 – i like half of your crazy conspiracy theory. Gavilar being surreptitiously induced by Odium to divulge his plans because he possessed both dark spheres makes a sort of sense. Venli though, I feel like she’s been in Odium’s back pocket for a lot longer than Eshonai presenting the sphere and warning the 5 of Gavilar’s plans pre-treaty signing. She was with Klade when he heard a voice urging him towards Szeth and we know that from Eshonai’s POV in WoR that Venli seemed extremely comfortable with Stormform, its powers, and the new rhythms post-change.
I hope we find out what happened to the sphere Eshonai presented to the 5 in OBR and eventually where Szeth hid the 2nd sphere.
@126: The imbalance in between the number of former Radiants and the known existing Shards has been noted within the fandom a long while ago. As far as I am aware, nobody has gotten a definite answer as to why and how. If I am not mistaken, the leading theory currently is one of the Heralds, presumably Nalan, has worked to gather and hid them, perhaps with the help of his Skybreakers. This remains however a speculative theory: it isn’t supported by any textual nor WoB evidence.
Perhaps Oathbringer will shed some light onto this mystery.
@130: It is more complicated than that… Brandon has also explicitly stated one did not need to be alive to play a role within the main narrative. He gave this answer after being asked if knowing characters such as Renarin and Lift were to have flashbacks within the back five weren’t a tad anti-climatic as it gave them plot armor. Brandon then confirmed Renarin (he omitted Lift’s name within his answer, either intentionally or not, I cannot say) absolutely did not have plot armor and he would not shy away from writing the narrative for a dead character.
Brandon has also stated not all books will follow the structure of books 1,2 and now 3 where the flashback character, the focus character, the order were all aligned. He said it may not always be the case.
Hence, nothing says Eshonai HAS to currently be alive.
It is such while I personally do not believe Eshonai is dead for the mere reason her story arc is unfinished (or sounds unfinished), we have to be careful in trying to draw too many conclusions based on who gets a flashback sequences and who doesn’t. While Brandon did say he considered his flashback characters to be the main protagonists of his story, he never said it prevented other characters from having story arcs nor that those characters were the only ones meant to show cast a Radiant order. Eshonai does not have to be the leader of any Radiant order: these are hasty conclusions. Even if she becomes a Radiant from a given order (say randomly Willshaper) it does not mean all Willshaper action will come from her, it does not mean she won’t die and another character will rise up to the main narrative to finish fleshing out the order.
It is all more complicated than whom gets a main flashback sequence and whom doesn’t.
Also I would say I am one of those boring readers who think killing characters is over-rated. I’d rather they live and tell their story then they die just to create a shock moment. I find it harder to write a good character than to kill off one just to say you have killed someone “important”, but YMMV.
@125 From the flashback chapter we got here, the Blackthorn is determinedly ignorant about things which do not involve fighting. He doesn’t even pay attention to why he’s fighting a given battle, which is actually important for a general to know.
@128 It’s been a really long time since the Recreance. Given that bonded blades appear beside the body, every time someone dies in an inconvenient place there’s a high chance their blade would be lost. I’m not sure that attrition would account for all of the missing Shards but definitely some.
(long time rereads lurker here)
@133 & others
I somehow missed WoB regarding leaders of the orders being tied to flashback characters. As such, I did not even think much on the possibility of one of the Parshendi becoming Radiant (even if we see some wearing Shard armor…). Though it kind of is an interesting idea; as far as I remember from the books, there was no explicit mention of any Radiants being non humans. Though as a symbolic gesture, it would be nice to see those Parshendi that managed to escape the battle on the Shattered Planes get some Radiants of their own.
Talking of non-humans, I really like Sanderson’s take on what are, effectively, the first proper “aliens” we encounter in the Cosmere, and all the subsequent issues with communication after the “First Contact” that can arise from that (barring a certain recipient of a certain letter; Lord Rulers creations do not count, and Aimians are introduced a little after the Parshendi) – certainly the whole idea of conveying emotions, implications of multiple forms (e.g. dullform spies, Stormform and its relation to Odium), understanding the structure of the society (the fact that it took the Alethi ages to even notice that Parshendi attack them in pairs, and what that might entail, etc, etc.)
Sad that a single man’s decision and conversation has started the entire conflict and brought about so much death, though to what extent was that avoidable at that stage? I wonder how events would have played out if Gavilar did not share his vision with Eshonai that night? Or, worse, what would have happened if he talked to Venli? In fact, come to think of it, who gave him the impression that led to the conclusion that “we are allies in seeking the return of your gods” ? Could it be that he had communicated with Venli or her conspirators already and thought that, Eshonai being Venli’s sister, she is in the know? Though, given his actions, it seems that whoever he has communicated with before, he was lead to believe that all Parshendi leadership would be happy at the news (since he passes his dark sphere to the Five).
Re Gavilar – hmm, somehow Dalinar made him sound much better than he is; sure, creating an external enemy to unify a nation is a classic, but the human cost involved… (Taravangian’s approach of decapitating the leadership and creating chaos is no better, imho, than the outright war Gavilar was gearing towards.) I would love to know how much Navani knew of all the plans. Also, I find it rather ironic that for all of Gavilar’s talk of his officers’ arrogance in thinking they had the Parshendi savages figured out, he falls into the same trap. Finally, Gavilar mentions that he is being watched – by whom? (e.g. Heralds, such as Nale – given his Radiant killing ways, there sure were a lot of people of interest for him to investigate; I wonder why if he knew about Jasnah?)
Re: flashback characters:
(Note that this was long enough ago that he was still planning to put Dalinar’s flashbacks in book 5, which has obviously changed. One thing he said in another quotation, which I won’t copy here, is that he wants the flashbacks to fit thematically with the main arc… but that doesn’t mean the flashback character is necessarily involved in the main story.)
I, too, have never seen a Word of Brandon saying that the flashback characters will all be leaders of their respective Orders. I haven’t even seen anything that says they will all be Knights Radiant, for that matter. Each book will focus on a different Order to some extent; each book will have a different flashback character. Don’t conflate the two. We know that, as of now, the five flashback characters for the “back five” are to be Jasnah, Renarin, Lift, Shalash, and Taln. Two of those are already Heralds – and Shalash is the Herald of an Order that’s already been the focus of a book. Does that mean she has to switch Orders and become leader of the Dustbringers or Willshapers? I don’t think so.
I’ll edit to add other relevant quotations as I find them, such as this one:
My theory on the number of shards. First I could see plate being destroyed into rubble so that it’s unknown and just around.
Second I don’t think all the spren were in sword form I think some were in soul casters form.
Third I’m in agreement with nalan or some of the other hearelds taking both plate and swords
@126, 128, 137:
Dalinar also wonders at where all the shard are at. During his vision of the Recreance, he sees over 300 shardblades and plate abandoned, and thinks to himself that this was only one branch of the Knights Radiant, not all of them, and there are only around 100 known shardblades in the world. He wonders what happened to the rest of them.
@138 et al. Maybe the Shin are rounding them up some how? They are holding on to the Herald’s weapons.
Does Szeth have thoughts about other’s shard blades in WoK?
@135: As far as I am aware, there is indeed no WoB which ties flashback characters to Radiant orders: it merely is a popular assumption. I mean, we had 10 books, 10 Radiant orders, 10 flashback characters, 3/4 of which being already confirmed as Radiants, it was very easy to place-hold the remaining. The “Shalash will become a Dustbringer” theory exists for this sole reason as it seems an inconsistency for some readers there would not be a flashback character for this order.
Many theories exist and/or get strong opposition because many readers, including myself, assume too much out of the book planning.
Moreover, Brandon recently said, on Reddit (he said A LOT on Reddit within the last months), is while the line-up for the first arc is close to rock solid, the line-up for the back five may still change. So yes, there is a plan, but it is not final yet.
He also said his plans were for book 4 and 5 to follow roughly similar outline as books 1, 2 and 3 (meaning having Eshonai/Szeth have a strong presence within the main narrative, someone asked this question on Reddit), but he isn’t sure it will work as he planned it.
On the flashbacks, Brandon said he planned each sequence to articulate around a given secret, a given event: they aren’t meant to cover the entire past life of a given character, they are meant to tell us something specific. Kaladin’s flashbacks were about Tien dying and how he became a slave, but large chunks of his life as a soldier was ignored. Shallan’s flashbacks were how she had a Shardblade and what has she been hiding all along, but it didn’t broach how she bonded Pattern in the first place (a frequent critic readers have). I suspect Dalinar’s flashbacks will be articulate around his visit to the Nightwatcher, his relationship with both hid brother and his wife, but we aren’t getting how he met Navani (Brandon said it happened before the events within his first flashback chapter).
This being said, Brandon never said he wouldn’t write flashback sequences outside the scope of his main sequences, he just said those were the major ones.
@138: Yes, this is right. I forgot about Dalinar. Thanks for mentioning it.
@139: I have seen this theory too. It seems plausible. I don’t however recall Szeth mentioning anything specific.
@106 He actually writes (in his coked up way) “Can we make to use a Truthless? Can we craft a weapon?” It seems reasonable to interpret this as asking if he can use the already existing Szeth and turn him into a weapon, not make him Truthless in the first place.
I feel like the spren that they captured to stop the Parshendi may likely have been of Culture.
I also cannot wait to hear Dalinar’s reaction when he learns what his brother was up to…
@142:
Do you mean of Cultivation? How do you think that works? Its an interesting theory.
I haven’t seen this mentioned before, so forgive me if it has been discussed.
Do the Parshendi have gemhearts? When they bond with a spren, are they capturing a different spren inside, which changes their form?
Also, on an unrelated note, when did Gavilar begin having visions? Was his decision to reforge Alethkar into a unified kingdom in response to the visions? Perhaps when he continued to have the visions after having ascended to the throne, he thought he needed to think bigger. Hence a war with the Parshendi and their gods.
Maybe he thought a desolation was coming no matter what and it would be better to control when and where it appeared.
Just thoughts. I would like to know if they have already been discussed and discarded.
That seems a definite possibility to me. After all the humans (and probably their horses) migrated to the planet so are not native there. I’m assuming that the Parshendis are native to the planet and since many of the native “animals” have gemhearts, I would think that the Parshendi also. This would certainly help explain the bonding they do with the sprens.
@141
“can we make to use a Truthless? Can we craft a weapon?”
Then in what way would Taravangian be making Seth into a weapon?
crafting a weapon is certainly different then using an already existing one. Though I would agree that the first “sentence” is ambiguous on its own.
I don’t see how Seth could be crafted into any more of a weapon the he is at the time he kills Gavilar, he’s been made truthless and already has an honorblade
I am very curious who or what the voice speaking to the rhythms is. Was this voice inside or outside Klade’s head? It doesn’t say that Venli also heard the voice, just that she was with him. Does it have a human/parshendi origin or is it related to Odium or a void-entity? If the latter, how would the disembodied voice know about Szeth? I’m interested to learn more about it.
“My people were Radiant once, and your people—the parshmen—were vibrant. Who is served by this drab world”
This vibrant and drab word usage kinda made me think back to Warbreaker. We know we have a cross over from a main character in Warbreaker into Roshar. I know I’m stretching here but that just seems…on purpose? Where did the Parshendi come from?
@148 IRRC, we know that Parshendi are native to Roshar.
After reading the prologue i can’t help but think that navani knows a lot more than she is letting on. With her fabrial research i doubt that gavilar would have got to that point without her. That leads me to whether she is playing dalinar. It was very convenient that she turns up and makes a move on him because he was the real control on the shattered plains. Is that why she really picked gavilar alien those years ago? For the power?
Storms, I love what Sanderson did with the Parshendi. He played the “monolithic monster horde” trope straight for a full novel, drastically subverted it with the perspectives of those in the horde, and then reverted it to devastating effect. Brilliant.
Eshonai POV chapters are excellent and I want more.
The recap had noted that both prologues told the story of Gavilar’s assassination from a different POV, which I didn’t even connect, and this continued the trend.
Is this the first time we really get to interact with Gavilar? I am way too feeble minded to parse out what all of this means, but if I recall, Amaram was part of some shady secret society that wanted to bring about a conflict to put the church back in power…so would Gavilar also be a part of that? (I’m just going to have to read through the rest of the comments, except that I can’t see the first 74 :( )
I’d love to see this pattern of prologues continuing. I hope we see Gavilar’s POV next, but I bet we’ll have to wait until book 5 to see it. What other POVs are there that had a reason to be there? Kaladin and Shallan were kids, and so weren’t there. Maybe Amaram?
Attention was drawn to him by name in this one, and WoR’s prologue. We’re being subtly beaten over the head with “MY NAME IS MERIDAS AMARAM, NOTICE ME!”
Ah, when I posted this all the comments showed up :)
@27, 28 – I also noticed the ‘Unite them’ line.
Which makes me wonder, what is the ultimate source of all this. Dalinar’s visions (and theoretically Gavilar’s) are from Honor, right? Except he’s ‘dead’. So I’m just wondering what is actually spurring this plan, and if Gavilar’s idea is actually a good one, or something somehow influenced by Odium. Is this the same voice that is speaking in the Rhythms?
For viewpoints for the next book – was Navani there? She might be an interesting viewpoint, seeing as how she also seems to know quite a bit about the capturing spren business. I do hope we get a Gavilar POV too as I want to know who else he thought was trying to assassinate him (and why) and who he was so concerned about getting the other sphere.
Thank you to those who cleared up the black sphere business (that there are in fact two), as that was seriously bugging me!
@73 – I wonder if it’s possible that it is Odium but since they wouldn’t really know what Shards are, ‘spren’ would be the only way they could conceptualize it. But @75/76 have a good idea too…
Gavilar is definitely a fishy person…even the way he interacted with Eshonai seemed somewhat…condescending. But I can’t tell if that’s because she also isn’t able to quite understand human interaction.
I think the idea about the old guy being T is cool, but I was under the impression that the Diagram followers are not exactly the same as the Sons of Honor (although I’m stil not sure how that all connects). Was one of the women Navani?
Venli. If not, I’ll eat Shallan’s boots.
I wasn’t, I listened to Navani:
No, please do, I’m intrigued! *angry muttering* I agree with @150 Einadan – Navani knows a lot more, and I would love to spend some more time in her clever head. I disagree with her playing him, though. She comes off as genuine to me. She hadn’t had to play the romance angle to manipulate him, he was already jelly in her hands.
That goes at odds, somewhat, to Gavilar mentioning that there are spheres that could capture gods:
And right then he pulls the black sphere out of his pocket. Strong correlation, at least.
I can see that spheres might look like that, infused by the Everstorm, but there wasn’t one around, and directly infusing spheres by exposure to Spren doesn’t work as far as I know, so – what else but a powerful voidspren can it be? (Maybe it was infused off-world, though. The place the Herolds hang out between Desolations sounds as if there was plenty of Everstorm around all-year.)
@144
Do the Parshendi have gemhearts? When they bond with a spren, are they capturing a different spren inside, which changes their form?
Brandon was asked that by implication, the question was very sneaky and implied the gemhearts while asking about something else, he noticed and RAFO’d it, though. Brandon is too clever for us.
Of course she could be referring to the Chasmfiends’ gemhearts, but I’m backing that theory.
LisaMarie@152:
Amaram is a member of the Sons of Honor, and a secret Stormwarden. He believes that Gavilar would have been pleased with the results of what they accomplished at the end of WoR, but so does King Taravangian, who is part of the Diagram, which is a DIFFERENT secret society, which ALSO includes Stormwardens. They do not have the same goals. We don’t know if Gavilar was a member of one, the other, or both, or if he was mearely USING both societies for some other purpose.
….
Bob, Chapters 1-3 will go up at 9:00 a.m., and (as I understand it) that will probably be the normal posting time from here on. Sorry… especially if you stayed up waiting for it… :(
@158: 9 am in what time zone? Just so I don’t screw up my entire working day hovering on this site hoping for new chapters :D
@158: got it off the time of my post, tor.com is on UTC-4, so in 6 hours the new chapters will be posted.
Testing time right now!
LisaMarie @154:
The Sons of Honor are members of a secret society whose main objective appears to be to restore the primacy of the Vorin church in Roshar, if we are to believe Amaram, one of the principal members. Gavilar appears to have been sympathetic to their aims, if not the original leader. His stated aim is to make the Heralds return, even if he has to cause a Desolation to make that happen. The current leader of the society is unknown, though we speculate that it may be Restares.
The Diagramists are members of a different secret society, led by Taravangian. They know there is a Desolation coming, and they believe they have the recipe to guide humankind through it, under Taravangian’s leadership. They follow precepts written down by T on his day of absolute genius and compiled into their holy book called The Diagram.
Hope this helps. There are other secret societies such as the Ghostbloods and the Nalanists (possible proto radiants being trained in secret by Nalan – I distinguish them from the Radiant Order of Skybreakers by calling them Nalanists). When WoR came out I posted into the discussion board a summary of all the secret societies in Roshar. Hopefully I’ll be able to refine the summary when we get more information in OB.
this comes out midnight last week but now you’ve set expectations for the same today and no dice. Currently regretting staying up for chapters 1 & 2 :-(
I kept refreshing the page at work. Really wanted to waste 2 work hours reading this.
9 AM (is it PT) will be 9:30 PM from me. So thanks I guess, for keeping me focused on work?
@163. Yeah, I stayed up too. They need to pick a time and be consistent.
Alisonwonderland@162:
I don’t think there is ant separating the “Nalanists” from the Skybreakers. Nalan says that they are bonded to spren in Edgedancer. I suppose he could be completely nutso though.
All times announced for anything here will be the time that shows HERE when something is posted – i.e. Eastern time, or UTC-4 for those outside North America.
Gavilar’s reasoning in his dialog with Eshonai is decidedly Alethi. Battle is king. War is life. I’m not entirely convinced his disclosures were over and beyond the normal influence of Odium’s thrill.
Anthony Pero @166:
Nalan has gathered a group around himself, not all of whom are necessarily of the Radiant Order of Skybreakers. Example? Szeth. As well, the character who accompanied Nalan when he was attempting to kill Lift didn’t exhibit any radiant powers. And finally (though this is a very weak indication), it was reported to Shallan that Hellaran was rumored to have ‘joined the skybreakers’ before he showed up on Kaladin’s battlefield (wearing shards provided by the Ghostbloods). The rumor may be an indication that ‘the skybreakers’ is a large enough secret society to be talked about in whispers. All this suggests that Nalan’s group contains more than the few individuals he is training as KRs. Until we get more information, the secret society Nalan is operating may be more accurately described as Nalanists than as the Radiant Order of Skybreakers.
Alisonwonderland @169 – Uh… Wut?? Where did you get that Helaran’s Shards were provided by the Ghostbloods? That’s not remotely a provable theory.
@170 wetlandernw:
It’s not provable, no, but there are a lot of things hinting at it. Also, there’s no other more likely explanation of how Helaran got those shards.
manavortex @171 – There are several other likely explanations, but feel free to hold onto the one that has Helaran and Lin Davar both being part of the same organization…
@172 wetlandernw: One was Ghostblood, one was Son of Honor… no? Can’t say from the top of my head who was which, since I keep mixing them* up. Sorry.
*The secret societies, that is, not the Davars.
There are a number of secret societies. Sons of Honor. Ghostbloods. Diagram. Skybreakers. 17th Shard. Possibly more.
It is late and discussion has died down, but it is of interest here for all those that think Taravangian was one of the men with Gavilar – it is stated in his Interlude in WoR that he was there that night and that it was then that Gavilar had told him all about his visions –
I haven’t read all of the comments yet, but does anyone think there’s any significance to this statement by Gavilar to Eshonai:
“A new storm that will bring the Heralds out of hiding.”
He didn’t say “bring the Heralds back” or “bring about their return” – he said, “bring [them] out of hiding.” This seems to imply that he knows they are not… wherever it is they go between Desolations. He knows they are in hiding out in the world somewhere.
Mmmm, good catch!
Does anyone else want to see more about the Ryshadium? I would love to learn more about them. I have a feeling that they are going to have a very important part to play in the future story.
One thing I want to note is that this is the first time an outsider has described the Alethi as expressive. Almost every non-Alethi VP has described them as reserved. Even in Szeth’s intro, when they were all partying, he noted how different it was from their usual stoic demeanor. I wonder what Eshonai would think of a more expressive group, like the Herdazians?
Ugh, Gavilar. There are so many things wrong with that plan. Kind of reminds me of the people in the RW who want to bring about Armageddon so that they’ll be saved / rewarded.
I am beginning to wonder how much of the mess the characters are embroiled in is directly or indirectly the fault of Ishar. He seems to have been the one who inspired / ordered the Recreance, just on the off chance that a proto-Radiant might attract an Odium-spren. I wonder what else he is behind? I am becoming more and more assured that the fan-theory that Vasher is Ishar is incorrect, because I can’t see Vasher as we know him being so extreme. (Well, he is extreme, just not in that particular way.)
Palona is Pallah the herald! Boom!
@180 Jahseph *gasps* That fits her personality!
@67 I think you’re at least on the right track with the dawnshards theory. It seems like in 3 we’ll get a larger glimpse into the Cosmere…
is there evidence that Gavilar and Dalinar we’re getting visions from the same person? It seems to me like Gavilar’s version of Honor is more like Odium than Syl’s version of honor (since She is an honorspren, wouldn’t her view of honor be more accurate?)
@79 I agree with you that Venli Likely didn’t start out evil, as her intent was to stop Odium. @79 & @80 I love the theory that’s the black stone contains a piece of Odium!
plus, it seems like Odium to want to “bring back” his enemies- ‘cause how else can he destroy them?
@86 I don’t think that Odium is dead, but his influence or life doesn’t mean characters aren’t responsible for their own actions. Excepting a few characters, it seems that each individual is responsible for his or her actions. Kallan, for example, has to Choose to say and Believe the words associated with Honor before he can truly bond with Syl. It does seem that after some time a person bonded with a Soren may become that character (Odium being case in point)- but this either happens through ignorant experimentation or purposeful choice….(exceptions: Eshonai when she captured the Voidspren thing, the Parshmen after they accept their “listener” standpoint… and Szeth, because of his oathstone).
And has anyone ever figured out who is opposite of Odium?
@77 I have a feeling Amaram didn’t back Dalinar because the visions must’ve been coming from different places. Gavilar’s visions encouraged him to bring back the war and to unite- Dalinar’s visions were trying to help him see the whole picture so he could Stop the voidbringers.
Im sure I’ll want to comment on what other people have said, but this is getting Long as it is. So I’ll publish this and wait eagerly for responses ;
Ok, so what if the the spren in the black spheres are Unmade/Splinters of Odium? And as somebody in the comments (@69) said, they are slightly different. But still shades of black, so maybe two different Unmade (not Nergaoul or Re-Shepnir, though). Or MAYBE, they aren’t stormspren, but a different variety of voidspren (didn’t Syl or Pattern or somebody say there were different types?).
@183, I think you’re on to something. In WOR, WAK, and Edgedancer, there are quite a Few references to Odium, including lines that say these sprens are “splinters of a soul/a god/one of the unmade/him”….
soooo excited for tomorrow!